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Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - RedheadMN - 08-09-2024

Roman Catholic Church history  - Popes and priests in the Roman Catholic Church were no longer allowed to marry starting in the 11 Century, and priestly celibacy was required.

Today, if you look, there are married Catholic priests, married with children, coming to the Roman Catholic Church from the Episcopal church, a pastoral provision from the late Pope John Paul II.

What do you think?  Do you think Roman Catholic Priests should be allowed to marry again as it's part of Church history?




Jannet

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - James - 08-09-2024

I did a fairly comprehensive posting on this at CM (now unavailable). In short, the current majority Latin position - that there is a valid law requiring celibacy on the part of tbe secular clergy - is false legally, theologically, and historically. It also fails "the good tree produces good fruits test." This has NOTHING to do with the infallible teachings ot the Ordinary Universal or Extraordinary Magisteria, neither does it discredit the church's indefectibility. Many trads think so, because of a defective understanding of these things, and because of a certain psychological resistance to clerical marrrage grounded in a kind of gnostic attitude to marriage (read: sex) or ritual purity, which survive in a residual Jansenism (not the condemned errors of Jansenius). However, more and more trads are beginning to admit that the compulsion of celibacy has been a mistake. It is the kind of administrative error that Our Lord never guaranteed that He would prevent His apostles's successors from falling into, and that includes the Bishop of Bisbops, the Pope himself.

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - RedheadMN - 08-09-2024

(08-09-2024, 06:22 AM)James Wrote: I did a fairly comprehensive posting on this at CM (now unavailable).  In short, the current majority Latin position - that there is a valid law requiring celibacy on the part of tbe secular clergy - is false legally, theologically, and historically.  It also fails "the good tree produces good fruits test."  This has NOTHING to do with the infallible teachings ot the Ordinary Universal or Extraordinary Magisteria, neither does it discredit the church's indefectibility.  Many trads think so, because of a defective understanding of these things, and because of a certain psychological resistance to clerical marrrage grounded in a kind of gnostic attitude to marriage (read: sex) or ritual purity, which survive in a residual Jansenism (not the condemned errors of Jansenius).  However, more and more trads are beginning to admit that the compulsion of celibacy has been a mistake.  It is the kind of administrative error that Our Lord never guaranteed that He would prevent His apostles's successors from falling into, and that includes the Bishop of Bishops, the Pope himself.

What I do know is most people I've talked to about this topic have no knowledge regarding on the topic, meaning Catholics.  One person wanted to know why she didn't know.

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - James - 08-10-2024

There is some unfairness being practised (and selfish politicking for one's own advantage going on) here.  Probably the majority of Latin clergy are in good faith about this, even if mistaken.  In fact, the worst resistance in the face of even detailed legal and theological proof cones from a certain type of trad layman.
(08-10-2024, 01:32 AM)James Wrote: There is some unfairness being practised (and selfish politicking for one's own advantage going on) here.  Probably the majority of Latin clergy are in good faith about this, even if mistaken.  In fact, the worst resistance in the face of even detailed legal and theological proof cones from a certain type of trad layman.

I should clarify:  when I say "here", I mean wrt this subject-matter, not at CH.

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - ezdays - 08-10-2024

Although I'm not as versed as some on Catholic doctrine, I have my opinions which I stated on CM a few times, and was essentially pummeled by a few members there that didn't agree:
  • Why is it OK for Eastern Rite priests to marry but not Roman Rite priests?
  • Was not the first pope, St. Peter, (decreed by Christ) and many after him married?
  • Did Christ ever decree that priests should be celibate? (That was decided over 1000 years after Christ walked the earth.)
  • Agreed that many priests (and popes) got carried away such as Pope Alexander XI, but that is not the norm.
  • Would we have had the scandals we've had were priests allowed to marry? I think not.
  • Would not marriage and child counseling by an experienced priest make more sense?
  • Would there be the priest shortage we have today if they were allowed to marry?
I personally know a number of men that have left the priesthood to get married. One was the priest that married us, he left a few years later to marry his secretary. A real loss to the Church.

I have more to say on this subject, but I think I've said enough for now.... Waiting

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - English Rose - 08-10-2024

(08-10-2024, 02:35 PM)ezdays Wrote: Although I'm not as versed as some on Catholic doctrine, I have my opinions which I stated on CM a few times, and was essentially pummeled by a few members there that didn't agree:
  • Why is it OK for Eastern Rite priests to marry but not Roman Rite priests?
  • Was not the first pope, St. Peter, (decreed by Christ) and many after him married?
  • Did Christ ever decree that priests should be celibate? (That was decided over 1000 years after Christ walked the earth.)
  • Agreed that many priests (and popes) got carried away such as Pope Alexander XI, but that is not the norm.
  • Would we have had the scandals we've had were priests allowed to marry? I think not.
  • Would not marriage and child counseling by an experienced priest make more sense?
  • Would there be the priest shortage we have today if they were allowed to marry?
I personally know a number of men that have left the priesthood to get married. One was the priest that married us, he left a few years later to marry his secretary. A real loss to the Church.

I have more to say on this subject, but I think I've said enough for now.... Waiting

Married priests and their children would of course be more expensive to support.

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - ezdays - 08-10-2024

(08-10-2024, 09:51 PM)Ruth Wrote: Married priests and their children would of course be more expensive to support.

Yup, it's time we paid our priests a decent wage. Adding more priests will be expensive too.

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - Jericho - 08-10-2024

(08-09-2024, 12:18 AM)RedheadMN Wrote: Roman Catholic Church history  - Popes and priests in the Roman Catholic Church were no longer allowed to marry starting in the 11 Century, and priestly celibacy was required.

Today, if you look, there are married Catholic priests, married with children, coming to the Roman Catholic Church from the Episcopal church, a pastoral provision from the late Pope John Paul II.

What do you think?  Do you think Roman Catholic Priests should be allowed to marry again as it's part of Church history?




Jannet

Hi Jannet.  According to the Theology of the Body, a catholic priest can be married if they are a convert from a different Christian faith. My local parish had a Catholic Priest who used to be a married Episcopal priest. Celibacy is a discipline upheld by the Roman Rite in comparison to the Eastern Rite

Celibacy is not the problem, sin is the problem. Sinful priests are just in need of Jesus’s tender mercy and forgiveness to help them overcome their sins and weaknesses

Since marriage is simply an icon pointing towards the Heavenly reality, priest are simply choosing to skip marriage to say Yes to God alone in a spiritual way. The priest are in a sense a spiritual father to spiritual children

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - RedheadMN - 08-11-2024

Thanks for everyone's great replies, for or against!

I think it's an important topic for Latin Catholics, but are blind to, or perhaps just ignorant. 

My personal thoughts:

There's Church history, Popes and priest married in the Latin rite, it's history and part of the Church

A man does not stop being a man when they enter the priesthood.  We are sexual beings as we are human.

I know successful Latin priest, with wife and children, a scholar, coming from an Anglican tradition. His parish is very proud, and pleased with him.  A Latin priest could do just fine married with children.

A step over to the Lutherans, a branch off the Latin Church from Martin Luther, I also know married and unmarried clergy, through my work, writing.  They are able to do their work as clergy, have children or not. (I don't know if Lutheran pastors are part of the Pastoral Provision by Pope John Paul II.)
Answer:  video EWTN
 

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - James - 08-11-2024

This, by Dr Clare McGrath-Merkle,  is also broadly relevant, referring to the post-"reformation" theology (French school of spirituality) of the priesthood:  https://cruxnow.com/interviews/2020/03/post-reformation-theology-of-the-priesthood-influenced-abuse-crisis-author-says

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - RedheadMN - 08-12-2024

(08-11-2024, 10:35 PM)James Wrote: This, by Dr Clare McGrath-Merkle,  is also broadly relevant, referring to the post-"reformation" theology (French school of spirituality) of the priesthood:  https://cruxnow.com/interviews/2020/03/post-reformation-theology-of-the-priesthood-influenced-abuse-crisis-author-says

Quote from the link above, "Cardinal Sarah mentions that Church councils by the 4th century had already called on the importance of continence for priests. I can speak to the era of Pope St. Gregory the Great who was born in the 6th century and who met the corruption of his day by making celibacy a rule for married clergy and a new rule for candidates. As an ideal, celibacy has required, over the centuries, repeated restorations of its practice. We know the need for intimacy and the desire for family are two reasons priests either elect to lead double lives or leave ministry."

So, in the 6th Century, to fix corruption, go with celibacy, the idea came from Pope St. Gregory the Great.

Double lives -  I have had women tell me stories of priests approaching them for the reasons listed above, it's a real thing. I've actually should say, many stories of women.

I'm also guessing, not all priests departing the Church to be married are laicized. (Laicization is request to leave as preist, and defrocking is issued as punishment.)


Infamous case of Miami priest, when I was still living in Florida.
Read story - Father Albert Cutie Lashes Out at Catholic Church

"Celibacy works for some priests some of the time, but it does not work for most priests most of the time."

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - James - 08-12-2024

The attacks upon the marriages of diocesan priests by S Gregory I, and several hundred years later, S Gregory VII and other monastic popes (not to mention S Peter Damian) amounted to a persecution of the secular clergy by monks.  This was a grave error.  Even saints can make mistakes, and it doesn't follow that because S Gregory VII was right to assert wrt the theory of "The Two Swords", the superiority of the spiritual "sword" over the temporal one (represented by The Holy Roman Emperor), that he was right in his largely unsuccessful attempt to suppress clerical marriage.  Also, Cardinal Sarah's position seems to rely on the (discredited) book by the late Cardinal Alfons Stickler, which seems to rely on the (discredited) view of the French theologian Laurent Touze (harking back to the ideas of the French School) that the priesthood ONTOLOGICALLY demands celibacy.  Here is an article by Rev Dr Anthony Dragani, a married Eastern-rite deacon, that deals with the Stickler book:  https://east2west.org/articles/mandatory_clerical_celibacy/

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - RedheadMN - 08-12-2024

From https://east2west.org/articles/mandatory_clerical_celibacy/

From the last paragraph or so, "Likewise, the Catholic Church has officially recognized the full legitimacy of the Eastern tradition of a married priesthood.[66] For evidence of this one needs to look no further than the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, which was promulgated by Pope John Paul II in 1990. Canon 373 authoritatively states that “the hallowed practice of married clerics in the primitive Church and in the tradition of the Eastern Churches throughout the ages is to be held in honor.”[67] The legitimacy of the Eastern discipline is also affirmed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph no. 1580."

With that said, the Latin Church also has a tradition of married clergy, priest and popes.

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - James - 08-12-2024

(08-10-2024, 11:28 PM)ezdays Wrote:
(08-10-2024, 09:51 PM)Ruth Wrote: Married priests and their children would of course be more expensive to support.

Yup, it's time we paid our priests a decent wage. Adding more priests will be expensive too.

About 2000, I had dinner at a restaurant with a former seminary classmate.  He complained that the SSPX had not increased priests' salaries since the early 1970s, and that it was thanks to his brother (a doctor), who had given him an AMEX card and met any charges incurred, that he could survive.  The SSPX leadership have no idea about running an organisation.

This reminds me of the saying, "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys".

Did I dodge a bullet, or what?!?

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - RedheadMN - 08-12-2024

(08-12-2024, 10:48 AM)James Wrote:
(08-10-2024, 11:28 PM)ezdays Wrote: Yup, it's time we paid our priests a decent wage. Adding more priests will be expensive too.

About 2000, I had dinner at a restaurant with a former seminary classmate.  He complained that the SSPX had not increased priests' salaries since the early 1970s, and that it was thanks to his brother (a doctor), who had given him an AMEX card and met any charges incurred, that he could survive.  The SSPX leadership have no idea about running an organisation.

This reminds me of the saying, "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys".

Did I dodge a bullet, or what?!?

You might try Circus Peanuts, it's a candy that looks like peanuts, sold in the USA! I nearly purchased a bag for guests this past week.
 "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys".

It's a very sad state on many levels not be be paid a living wage after years of education.

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - William St. Guthlac - 08-12-2024

Our Society parish priest, who is the one who offered me catechesis (after being turned away in two dioceses) and ultimately brought me into the Church a couple of years ago among many other kindnesses, has recently been reassigned to an African nation.

He had to make his own travel arrangements, visa nighmare etc. He is also, I can tell, operating on a shoestring. He didn't complain about it but I have been there for years and can recognize the signs. I am going to try to keep him in some supply through Mass stipends routed through Western Union, but I am very concerned. The logistical support seems a mere gesture.

Yeah, the support there is very ad hoc and inadequate, the duties are many.

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - James - 08-13-2024

Drilling down a level with Dr Clare McGrath-Merkle, although she doesn't mention the specific issue of celibacy until the very end. However, she deals with a flawed and revolutionary theology of the priesthood bound to result in a demand for celibacy, in response to Luther's equally flawed and revolutionary theology of the priesthood: https://regensburgforum.com/2020/08/23/fallen-failsafes-and-a-revolutionary-modern-priesthood/

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - enchantmentadm - 08-15-2024

As Jannet's article points out, priestly celibacy was not suddenly invented in the 11th century, even if it was not strictly required until then. I will not go into detail here, since this was discussed many times on the old CM forums. However, a good modern defense of celibacy is a book by Cardinal Sarah and Pope Benedict entitled "From the Depths of Our Hearts." It is published by Ignatius Press. This book outlines the theological reasons for maintaining celibacy. There are practical reasons as well. As pointed out above, priests with wives and families will be more expensive to maintain. Are you willing to donate two or three times as much as you are now? Also, it will be hard for priests to meet the demands of both their parish and their families. In fact, many Protestant ministers wish they had celibacy for this reason. Of course, there can be exceptions as suggested above. Eastern rite priests should be allowed to marry, if they declare this intention prior to ordination. This is in line with the Vatican II document mandating that eastern rites be restored to their full ancestral traditions.

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - James - 08-15-2024

Pope Benedict protested his inclusion wrt Cardinal Sarah's book:  
https://sightmagazine.com.au/news/ex-pope-benedict-xvi-steps-back-from-a-book-that-put-him-at-odds-with-pope-francis/


The problem wrt Card Sarah's arguments are that they are attempts to justify the requirement retrospectively.  The original argumemts were "sex is impure"/"girl germs" type arguments.  Just about everyone now admits that such justifications are untenable, so if the alleged obligation is to be maintained, new arguments needed to be found.  Unfortunately, they are just as unconvincing.  Time management ones no more work for priests than they do for lawyers, surgeons, police, soldiers, etc.  Here's an example of how clerical marriage, in the Latin Church can work:  https://catholicherald.org/local/papa-z-husband-dad-priest/

RE: Church history of Roman(aka Latin) Catholic priests and marriage - enchantmentadm - 08-16-2024

(08-15-2024, 09:22 PM)James Wrote: Pope Benedict protested his inclusion wrt Cardinal Sarah's book:  
https://sightmagazine.com.au/news/ex-pope-benedict-xvi-steps-back-from-a-book-that-put-him-at-odds-with-pope-francis/


The problem wrt Card Sarah's arguments are that they are attempts to justify the requirement retrospectively.  The original argumemts were "sex is impure"/"girl germs" type arguments.  Just about everyone now admits that such justifications are untenable, so if the alleged obligation is to be maintained, new arguments needed to be found.  Unfortunately, they are just as unconvincing.  Time management ones no more work for priests than they do for lawyers, surgeons, police, soldiers, etc.  Here's an example of how clerical marriage, in the Latin Church can work:  https://catholicherald.org/local/papa-z-husband-dad-priest/

I infer, James, that you are referring to ritual purity. This has nothing to with sex being bad or impure or "girl germs." It has to do with separating the sacred from the every day. If I accepted your argument, I would have to believe that the Church imposed fasting before the Eucharist because food is bad or impure. (This may seem like not such a big deal now but until a few decades ago, communicants were expected to fast beginning at midnight.) It does not matter if Cardinal Sarah's arguments were not those originally used to justify celibacy if they are persuasive arguments (and I believe they are.) You cannot put the priesthood in the same category as secular professions and occupations such as medicine, law, etc. These occupations have nothing to do with the salvation of souls. A married priesthood does work in the eastern rites, which generally exist in countries and cultures that are more traditional and less secularized than the west. However, I maintain that eliminating the celibacy requirement in the western Church (i.e, the Latin rite) would result in a more worldly and secularized Church, which is exactly the opposite of the direction we need to be going in.